We are constantly reminded about the destructive consequences of religion -- intolerance, hatred, division, inquisitions, persecutions of "heretics," holy wars. Though far from the whole story, they are, nevertheless, true. There have been many awful consequences of religion.

What one almost never hears described are the deleterious consequences of secularism -- the terrible developments that have accompanied the breakdown of traditional religion and belief in God. For every thousand students who learn about the Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials, maybe two learn to associate Gulag, Auschwitz, The Cultural Revolution and the Cambodian genocide with secular regimes and ideologies.

For all the problems associated with belief in God, the death of God leads to far more of them.

So, while it is not possible to prove (or disprove) God's existence, what is provable is what happens when people stop believing in God.

1. Without God there is no good and evil; there are only subjective opinions that we then label "good" and "evil." This does not mean that an atheist cannot be a good person. Nor does it mean that all those who believe in God are good; there are good atheists and there are bad believers in God. It simply means that unless there is a moral authority that transcends humans from which emanates an objective right and wrong, "right" and "wrong" no more objectively exist than do "beautiful" and "ugly."

2. Without God, there is no objective meaning to life. We are all merely random creations of natural selection whose existence has no more intrinsic purpose or meaning than that of a pebble equally randomly produced.

3. Life is ultimately a tragic fare if there is no God. We live, we suffer, we die -- some horrifically, many prematurely -- and there is only oblivion afterward.

4. Human beings need instruction manuals. This is as true for acting morally and wisely as it is for properly flying an airplane. One's heart is often no better a guide to what is right and wrong than it is to the right and wrong way to fly an airplane. The post-religious secular world claims to need no manual; the heart and reason are sufficient guides to leading a good life and to making a good world.

5. If there is no God, the kindest and most innocent victims of torture and murder have no better a fate after death than do the most cruel torturers and mass murderers. Only if there is a good God do Mother Teresa and Adolf Hitler have different fates.

6. With the death of Judeo-Christian values in the West, many Westerners believe in little. That is why secular Western Europe has been unwilling and therefore unable to confront evil, whether it was Communism during the Cold War or Islamic totalitarians in its midst today.

7. Without God, people in the West often become less, not more, rational. It was largely the secular, not the religious, who believed in the utterly irrational doctrine of Marxism. It was largely the secular, not the religious, who believed that men's and women's natures are basically the same, that perceived differences between the sexes are all socially induced. Religious people in Judeo-Christian countries largely confine their irrational beliefs to religious beliefs (theology), while the secular, without religion to enable the non-rational to express itself, end up applying their irrational beliefs to society, where such irrationalities do immense harm.

8. If there is no God, the human being has no free will. He is a robot, whose every action is dictated by genes and environment. Only if one posits human creation by a Creator that transcends genes and environment who implanted the ability to transcend genes and environment can humans have free will.

9. If there is no God, humans and "other" animals are of equal value. Only if one posits that humans, not animals, are created in the image of God do humans have any greater intrinsic sanctity than baboons. This explains the movement among the secularized elite to equate humans and animals.

10. Without God, there is little to inspire people to create inspiring art. That is why contemporary art galleries and museums are filled with "art" that celebrates the scatological, the ugly and the shocking. Compare this art to Michelangelo's art in the Sistine chapel. The latter elevates the viewer -- because Michelangelo believed in something higher than himself and higher than all men.

11. Without God nothing is holy. This is definitional. Holiness emanates from a belief in the holy. This explains, for example, the far more widespread acceptance of public cursing in secular society than in religious society. To the religious, there is holy speech and profane speech. In much of secular society the very notion of profane speech is mocked.

12. Without God, humanist hubris is almost inevitable. If there is nothing higher than man, no Supreme Being, man becomes the supreme being.

13. Without God, there are no inalienable human rights. Evolution confers no rights. Molecules confer no rights. Energy has no moral concerns. That is why America's Founders wrote in the Declaration of Independence that we are endowed "by our Creator" with certain inalienable rights. Rights depend upon a moral source, a rights giver.

14. "Without God," Dostoevsky famously wrote, "all is permitted." There has been plenty of evil committed by believers in God, but the widespread cruelties and the sheer number of innocents murdered by secular regimes -- specifically Nazi, Fascist and Communist regimes -- dwarfs the evil done in the name of religion.

As noted at the beginning, none of this proves, or even necessarily argues for, God's existence. It makes the case for the necessity, not the existence, of God. "Which God?" the secularist will ask. The God of Israel, the God of America's founders, "the Holy God who is made holy by justice" (Isaiah), the God of the Ten Commandments, the God who demands love of neighbor, the God who endows all human beings with certain inalienable rights, the God who is cited on the Liberty Bell because he is the author of liberty. That is the God being referred to here, without whom we will be vanquished by those who believe in less noble gods, both secular and divine.

I dunno, I've always personally been an athiest (and I'm a conservative too, go figure). While a belief in any sort of "God" has never been the cornerstone of my existence, I can certainly understand the inclination for those who do.

HOWEVER...

I do realize that I'm in the minority (most of the time), and I would never (ever) espouse my beliefs (or lack thereof) in any way to influence anyone - just as I don't wish anyone to try to influence me one way of the other.

For example, if I'm a guest at someone's house and they wish to say grace before dinner, I'll bow my head like everyone else. And if I'm at a sporting event, if there's an invocation I'll doff my cap and bow my head like everyone else... because I believe it would be disrespectful to do otherwise.

If religion is what you believe in, if a belief in God inspires you to do the right thing and live a fruitful and productive life, I say more power to you.

But it's just never been for me.... wait a minute, is that lightning I see outside? Man it's getting awfully close...

Very good read.

You know, Yankee, I must respect your approach. You are practicing responsible tolerance. And it's a 2 way street. You are entitled to your beliefs just as I am. And neither should try to foist theirs on the other. As you said, that's respect.

Very thoughtfully put forth. It's incredible to me that so many would believe the notion that human life is purely random and inconsequential,and not give it another thought. But if you would throw out the idea that any other much less complex thing than the human body (such as a DVD player) could build itself just by sitting in a pile of silicon for millions of years,would any of them take it seriously?

I think that a lack of belief in God could be nothing more than a failure to take the time to think beyond life's simple distractions. It's the idea that what's going on right in front of my eyes has to be the only thing that's real. Ipods are "real",my leaky kitchen sink is "real",etc. What we don't often think about is that the supernatural (God,Jesus,satan,angels,etc.) are MORE real than any of this that we can see.

quote:

Without God,

My wife wouldn't have anyone to call for during sex??

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Originally posted by CHEMIGO:

quote:

Without God,

My wife wouldn't have anyone to call for during sex??

quote:

Originally posted by Shifterbrains:
Very thoughtfully put forth. It's incredible to me that so many would believe the notion that human life is purely random and inconsequential,and not give it another thought. But if you would throw out the idea that any other much less complex thing than the human body (such as a DVD player) could build itself just by sitting in a pile of silicon for millions of years,would any of them take it seriously?

I think that a lack of belief in God could be nothing more than a failure to take the time to think beyond life's simple distractions. It's the idea that what's going on right in front of my eyes has to be the only thing that's real. Ipods are "real",my leaky kitchen sink is "real",etc. What we don't often think about is that the supernatural (God,Jesus,satan,angels,etc.) are MORE real than any of this that we can see.

When unbelievers ask, "Where is proof of God?" I just answer them, "Look around." Who made that tree? Who made DNA or anything else that is impossibly complex? If you look at a DVD player you know SOMEONE made it. How much more proof do people need?

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Originally posted by CHEMIGO:

quote:

Without God,

My wife wouldn't have anyone to call for during sex??

Doesn't she call out YOUR name? Same thing right?

Religion is a faith behavior. I am an agnostic and will be a believer when fiction turns into facts. I believe in myself and believe in all the people that I love and care for. Religion does not automatically make you a good person, nor does an agnostic or atheist autommatically make you a bad person. My father was also an agnostic, yet he could quote from the bible without having to open the book. He was a very gracious and giving person to people who needed help, yet, one baptist minister told him he would go to hell when he died, if he did not believe in the word. Prove, with facts, to me that God exists, and I will become a believer. Am I a bad person, absolutely not. I, like my father, have helped people and have never expected anything in return. Giving of ones self to help others and being a good person, with integrity and character, is more important than any religion.

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Giving of ones self to help others and being a good person, with integrity and character, is more important than any religion.

I agree 100%

There have been many good and valuable comments on this topic, it is good to know thant there are things which can be discussed rationally. I firmly believe, though that the existence of God beyond a shadow of a doubt can be proven. I cannot see depression or aids or cancer, therefore does than mean that they do not exist? I can see the effects of them, but I cannot touch them. I can see the effects of wind, and my breathing, but I cannot actually see them of themselves. There are more things that prove the existence of God than could be recorded in this thread, and to anyone who desires to read the proof, I will be happy to accomodate. As to those who believe that it is true respect to not encourage someone to consider God, I call it a lack of both respect and love. If one will acknowledge the existence of God as our creator, then we have to acknowledge that we were created to serve Him, after all, is this not why we create all things that we do, to serve us? Then it is necessary that this Creator would need to have a means to communicate with us (Hebrews 1:1-4). And if we believe the Bible to be the rule book that God has given us for His service, then we must accept the fact that there is a Heaven and a Hell (for the Bible mentions both). If the Bible is truely God's Word, and we do not DO what it commands us to do, then eternal punishment in Hell will be the result. Now back to the point, if someone either not believing or not obeying God's will, will send them to Hell for all of eternity, where is the love and the respect of not sharing the message of the Gospel? I would never force God on anyone, it has never been productive. But to drop it and call that respect, that is not how I define respect; hatred or a lack of concern for the well-being of a soul, maybe; but certainly not respect.

Nice reply, preachertuck. I suggest The Lord whenever people need help and they think they are stuck. I don't, however, push The Lord onto people for the sake of doing so. I don't know if what I am doing is good, or bad, as far as some religions go to push for more members, but I feel that suggesting Him when people are in need has more of an effect.

I have friends who are atheist/agnostic and some are into the habit of always questioning me when I mention Him. Others are like Yankee and mind their own. I pray for them, and suggest they do the same just for insurance. They laugh it off as some fairy tail BS. I'll get them some day...

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Originally posted by Gar:

quote:

Giving of ones self to help others and being a good person, with integrity and character, is more important than any religion.

I agree 100%

But that is religion, it is called Godliness, Christianity. Without the worship of God, there is no need for such acts of kindness, only survival of the fittest. Why do you think that it seems right, or feels good to do good to others? It is because we are made in the image of God, with His spirit breathed into us, to make us the apex of His creation. Read Matthew 5:1-8:1, and you might find that if this is truly how you live, you are closer to Christianity than you think. Many confuse Christianity with denominationalism. God did not create us to division, but unity in Christ. If this has caused an ill feeling about religion with you, don't turn from God, but from the ignorance of man.

I like to put it this way for those who don't believe in God and our Savior Jesus Christ. If you're right, and there is nothing beyond the life we see around us, I haven't lost a thing by being the Christian I am. So what will happen if you're wrong?

For what it's worth, every single person will be called on personally by the Lord in his life time. I don't recommend ignoring it when it happens...